Mindi asked about Bulletproof protein fasting.
Jason asked about getting dizzy after eating a low-carb and Paleo breakfast.
Mindi asked about sleep hacking.
Christopher: Hi, everyone. Thanks for coming on live. It's very cool. Hi, Chris. Hi, Kathy. I'm hopeful you can hear us. You might want to let us know actually that you can hear us.
Julie: Hi, everyone!
Christopher: I've got Julie here with me today. So I'll go ahead and get started, more of a food-based or diet-based set of questions today, and the first one -- by the way, if you want to ask a question live, you should be able to do that in the chat box. You should see that on the right-hand side of your page there's a chat box and you can just type anything you want in there. Go ahead and type those in if you've got any questions.
So Mike asked, "Quite a few people have said fasting is not the best idea whilst trying to recover from any adrenal issues." First of all, we know that Mike has adrenal issues or cortisol-related issues because he's done a saliva test with us, and conveniently enough, Chris Kresser just talked about exactly this on his podcast from this week. That's the latest episode. So I'll link to that, and that was a very interesting episode.
His conclusion is the same as mine has always been, which is that I see fasting as a kind of moderate stressor. So you think of your body as constantly trying to defend homeostasis or stability all the time, and there are lots of things that you can do like get too hot or too cold or get upset about something and that's going to challenge that balance. It's going to challenge the homeostasis.
So one of these things you could do is to not eat food, right? So your body then switches into this fasted state. You start catabolizing lean and fat tissue in order to produce energy so that you don't just stop producing ATP and drop down dead. So if you already know that you've got a problem with stress and you've got a problem with cortisol, I'm going to try and recommend anything I can in order to reduce the level of stress, so I include any kind of intermittent fasting.
So first of all, I should say something about why you'd want to do intermittent fasting in the first place, and it's for that same catabolic reason that I just described. Cells and proteins, phospholipids and organelles inside the cell can become old and damaged and dysfunctional, and so you want to take out the trash, right? You want there to be some kind of catabolism that will break down these cells, dead and dying cells, and recycle them. So this seems like a good thing, and it would seem that when you stop eating, then it sends your body the signal to start breaking things down.
So for really, really healthy people, this might be beneficial in the long term for longevity, but I think it's quite easy to get confused when you're reading around the Internet or the literature what type of person is this article referring to. Are they talking about someone that's already fixed all of their problems and they're really healthy and they're just looking to increase their longevity? Or are they talking about someone that's actually quite sick?
Normally, I find it's the former, so it's people like Dave Asprey who's pretty much sorted out all of his problems and he's looking to get that last two percent. So maybe this is not such a good idea. What do you tell people, Julie, in terms of what to eat and meal timing?
Julie: I agree with you, and the approach that I typically have is when someone is really sick and trying to heal, one of the most important things that I think is -- for someone to really understand and gain an understanding of how their body responds to food, so how they're currently responding to food, how they're reacting to certain things in their diet, because certain things that maybe if you are 100% healthy wouldn't be causing a problem for you but because you have these issues, certain foods maybe aren't good for you right now.
So before I would ever recommend something like even -- a lot of people ask, "Oh, I want to get into ketosis." Well, that's not really what you should be focusing on right now. You need to be focusing on right now is lean, most nutrient-dense diet possible and learning how that affects how you feel, how your mood, how your energy and your healing and your recovery.
So that's where I come from in this regard. I think intermittent fasting is a separate subject but when you bring up healing in the question, my answer would be let's not focus on that. Let's focus on eating a really nutrient-dense diet, learning our new hunger cues especially because I'd encourage you to be adding fat to your diet and really trying to manage your macronutrient ratio to figure out exactly what you need to feel better and to heal. So that's why intermittent fasting might be great, might make someone feel really great.
I have some women who when they start adding more fats to their diet, they eat a really great breakfast and they're really full and they don't feel like they need to eat lunch and so they don't, and maybe they have maybe a late afternoon something if they've worked out and they have dinner, and that's all they really feel like they need. That's fine, but I think it's important to get to that place by way of really paying attention to how you feel, and keeping a food journal is a great way to do that.
Christopher: It also depends on what you're going to eat, right? There's a scale here. I know in particular for Mike the moment he's eating oatmeal for breakfast. But if I was to order these things in preference, then I would say intermittent fasting is probably better than eating oatmeal, right? But neither of those things are ideal. I'd much rather eat a high-fat breakfast like bacon and eggs. It's probably going to taste a lot better than oatmeal as well as [0:06:31] [Indiscernible]. I don't know if you've tried it. It's terrible stuff. But yes, that's what we'd recommend.
And then, of course, there's a blood sugar connection here as well that's worth talking about. So I know that cortisol is a glucocorticoid, which means it's involved in blood sugar homeostasis, so the stabilization of your blood sugar, and one thing I get everybody to do is to check their blood glucose and to keep it in this really tight 80 to 90 mg/dl range, which is about just under 5 mmol if you're in the UK.
Certain foods are going to make this a lot easier than others. Certainly, I almost don't know anyone that can eat oatmeal and stay in that tight range, whereas pretty much everybody is going to be having fats. You'd have to be a type 1 diabetic in order to not be able to eat bacon and egg for breakfast and see really any glycemic response.
Julie: Yeah. There's another question that we'll get into with intermittent fasting in women, but my response to that is the same thing, going off of what you're saying, is that I think blood sugar regulation is a prerequisite for making decisions like this. "So am I going to do intermittent fasting or am I going to go into ketosis? Or do I need to move my macronutrient ratios around?" I think all of those decisions need to be made based on whether or not your blood sugar is regulated, because I don't think you're going to -- if you've got problems to solve, my guess is your blood sugar is not stable.
So until your blood sugar is stable, I think that's what you should be focusing on. You should be focusing on figuring out how to eat the best diet possible to make your blood sugar stable and that will give you the energy that you need that will help you heal, that will help your adrenal stabilize. It's a prerequisite for all of this healing to take place, so I think it therefore is also a prerequisite for things like intermittent fasting as an extracurricular activity as opposed to the healing diet that we will recommend you be on first.
Christopher: One more thing that I thought was interesting that I saw recently on Bill Lagakos' website -- he's the Calories Proper guy; really interesting blog, worth a look if you've got the time -- but he recently summarized some research that showed there's actually -- and I guess we knew this already, but it's interesting to see the research come out and catch up -- that eating actually helps define circadian rhythm.
So there's two types of circadian rhythm. There's the central type that's going on in your brain. There's a part of your brain which is a clock and it gets that signal, that synchronization with the day through exposure to blue light, and so you would want to seek out -- it's really bright outside right now. It's great, it's perfect for telling your brain that it's now the daytime. You want to avoid that exact same thing at night, the blue light component at night, and that's going to set your cortisol/melatonin rhythm quite nicely.
But then, there's also this peripheral circadian rhythm that he talks about in his article which is more defined by food intake. So with all of these things, intermittent fasting is another example. It's like there's some pros and there's some cons, and one con is you're not sending this circadian message to your peripheral tissue that actually now it's daytime. So when people eat breakfast in the morning, then that's what they're saying to their brain. It's like, "Okay, this is daytime right now." It's one of the cues.
Having said that, when you look at this, I know that the ancestral health framework has been so useful to us and to me personally in finding the way forward, and when you look at that, it seems impossible to believe that we would have had a regular supply of breakfast, lunch and dinner every day in the way that we do now, but maybe -- that's not to say that that was optimal, right? Maybe not.
So how does this change if you're a woman? What do you think?
Julie: I'm not exactly sure that it's -- I mean, I don't even know if it needs to be [0:10:54] [Indiscernible]. I think for me, my recommendations always stem from really figuring out what's best for you and what you need to fuel you, especially your activities, so I don't like making blanket recommendations because if you could see the variation of activity that people do on a day-to-day basis, especially women -- I've got some women that I look at their food journal and they're doing CrossFit six times a week, and I've got others that are walking every other day for 30 minutes.
So to make a blanket statement about intermittent fasting for women is really difficult, but I think all of the things that we just talked about apply to women [0:11:34] [Indiscernible]. So blood sugar regulation is paramount to intermittent fasting, and making sure that your hormones are balanced is also more important than intermittent fasting. So I think that's really important.
But the other thing to consider is that when we're getting into that idea, so if you are generally pretty healthy and you are exercising pretty regularly, I think intermittent fasting is fine. I do intermittent fasting. I know Amelia does intermittent fasting. I think that it's fine for a generally healthy person, but I think there are some things that you need to consider like the types of meals you are eating. So if you're eating less meals a day, just by that mere fact alone, the meals that you are eating become very, very important, and --
Christopher: So nutrient density then becomes crucial.
Julie: Becomes extremely crucial.
Christopher: If you're only going to eat two meals, then you'll --
Julie: Yeah, and you have to prioritize. Amelia answered this question and she --
Christopher: So I should give you a little bit of background information about Amelia actually, and it's one of the reasons that she does such a great job at this work is she's coming from the same place. She's been through a similar experience as me. She had a period of increased stress, a period of falling apart, she did all of the same tests that you're doing now or have done, she found a Cryptosporidium infection, and in those days she absolutely could not get through the whole day without eating three square meals.
But now, like Julie, she just spontaneously does intermittent fasting. She doesn't even think about it. She's just not particularly hungry for breakfast when she gets up and so she doesn't eat it, and then she eats the rest of her meals inside a fairly normal window. So she's probably going at least 12 hours, maybe 16 hours without eating at all.
This is a really healthy state, but I think all of the things that we've talked about like blood sugar regulation and getting the hormones and balancing stuff, those are prerequisites to that point. So you shouldn't just try and dive in, in the same way she wouldn't -- maybe you were to go to a swimming pool and there's three diving boards. You wouldn't just climb up onto the highest one and see what you could do just because you saw someone else do it. Take it easy.
But certainly, the other things I'd say about the female aspect is the female hormone system is much more fragile. This makes sense when you think in terms of long-term building projects. Making babies to women is an extremely optimistic thing for their body to be doing, and so it makes sense for that system to become deregulated and shut down, if you like, when there's any kind of stress. So I know that women are particularly susceptible to hormonal derangement and -- I was just looking again, I'm going to have a professor of nephrology from UCSF back onto the podcast.
Julie: That's the kidney doctor, in case you don't know what "nephrology" is.
Christopher: The kidney doctor, yeah. I'm trying to sound fancy about saying "nephrology" but I didn't actually know what nephrology was before I interviewed her. But yeah, she's running a PCOS Paleo study. She's comparing the American Diabetic Association's diet to the Paleo diet in women that have polycystic ovarian syndrome, which we know is caused by androgen dominance and insulin resistance. So she's trying to get blood sugar under control, and she thinks that's how the Paleo diet is so effective is because of its blood sugar control. So yeah, that's another point that women are different, and this blood sugar thing is just so, so important.
Julie: Yeah. So the blood sugar -- everything that you said, but what Amelia said that I thought was really important was that she says the meals that she does have she makes it top priority, and I couldn't agree with that more. So if you're going to do some kind of intermittent fasting and you're a woman and you're busy, or you're a new mom and you're working and you're doing all this stuff, don't just latently do intermittent fasting because you're too busy to eat and therefore whatever meal you do happen to grab is a second thought.
You do need to be a little bit -- I like to really use -- you have to be proactive about these things. You can't just say, "Oh, I'm intermittent fasting because I didn't have time to eat today." Yes, sometimes that does happen, and the great thing about being acclimated to doing intermittent fasting is if you find yourself in that situation, it's not the end of the world. You're not going to all of a sudden just have some kind of hypoglycemic event.
But I think it's really important to be proactive because you need to be really cognizant of what nutrition you are going to have for the day. So you still need to get a lot of micronutrients and you probably need to adhere to specific macronutrient ratios as well in order to keep and maintain the health that you have. So in order to not have this be a stressful event and cut into the health that you've achieved by doing all of this work, you need to pay careful attention to the meals that you have and plan ahead.
So using Amelia as an example, she says she hasn't eaten breakfast in two years or so, which is perfectly fine if that works for her, and sometimes she's not hungry again until dinnertime so sometimes she'll skip lunch. So that's a very long day without eating, but because she makes the meals she does get a top priority, that to me isn't as worrisome, but you need to think ahead.
Bring food with you if you're not going to be at home, making sure that you have a well-stocked fridge that when you do get home, you're not exhausted and too tired to make yourself a really substantial meal, packing appropriate things or having things with you at your desk that you can eat if you do get hungry; I really can't stress that enough. It needs to be a priority. It needs to be top of mine, not just something that you'll do when you get to it.
Christopher: The other thing I see commonly in women is they have a tendency to undereat in a way that the men don't. So I'll talk to a woman and she says, "Oh, I feel like I'm just starting to slow down and my weight gain has plateaued," and then you ask how much they're eating and they're like, "Oh, okay. Let me just pull up my MyFitnessPal," which actually counts calories.
So normally, Julie does a shared Google Doc spreadsheet with people and that doesn't count calories, not in any meaningful way. We don't really use calorie counting as a guide, but at some point it can be useful just to see how much food you're eating. It's a slightly more useful measure than grams, I would say. She pulled it up and she's eating 1,100 calories a day [0:18:25] [Indiscernible] and she's an Ironman triathlete.
So this is a recipe for disaster. No question, your metabolism, the thyroid hormone, everything will start to slow down if you do that for long enough, and it probably won't be very many days before you start to slow down. So definitely, this is again something that's a gender difference where you don't see the men -- like men just get hungry and they just eat and eat and eat, whereas the women tend to starve themselves almost.
Mindy had a question about Bulletproof protein fasting which is quite interesting, and as always with Dave, I just don't know whether to believe him or not. It's always interesting, always, but his use of the literature to back up his statements are tenuous at best, and I know that you can basically use literature to prove anything at this point. There's enough papers out there to prove anything.
So the idea is Bulletproof protein fasting, you go one day where you eat almost no protein on that day and you don't have to starve yourself but you still get these catabolic effects where the cells are being broken down and eaten -- autophagy -- which can have some nice regenerative and longevity effects. In this instance, Mindy feels nauseated, dizzy, and gets brain fog all day long, and obviously, everything we've said so far applies even though what you're doing is restricting protein.
One thing I know about this is the protein metabolism. So the essential amino acids are essential for a reason, right? That's what the word "essential" means. It means we cannot survive without them. What will happen if you don't eat enough food or enough protein is you'll start to catabolize lean tissue, which is the point, right? But when you look at lean muscle mass like your bicep, for example, when that starts to be broken down, you're not going to get a nice balance of all the essential amino acids released. You're just going to get alanine, and there's only so many things you can do with alanine.
Then there's all these biochemical processes that are going on inside your body and your liver, all the different liver detox pathways, and you're making neurotransmitters and enzymes and all kinds of things that are all happening billions of times per second, and they need these essential amino acids and so -- like dopamine production needs tyrosine and phenylalanine. So if you're not eating that, you're not making it at the same rate, I'm sure of it, and that's why the supplements work, too. You can take tyrosine as a supplement and affect your dopamine production.
So it wouldn't surprise me then that something bad happens. I'm sure for a really, really healthy person that has no stress, is not working out or just spends the whole day meditating or something, maybe they can get away with this, but in real life -- and it would be interesting to know, actually, like it's easy to throw up an article on a website or write something in a book and say, "Oh, this in theory should be great," but how many people are really doing this and getting good results with it? That's what I'd like to know.
Julie: Well, I think this begs the question too, what's your baseline? I mean, I wouldn't recommend this at all to anybody that hasn't done this kind of testing in figuring out where they are with their health, especially if there's other kinds of issues going on, because if you're trying to do any kind of healing, you need protein to heal. You should not be fasting protein at all. I would say that that was actually probably really detrimental to any kind of healing process that you had going on.
Also, if you're someone that does really intense types of workout like CrossFit or high-intensity stuff that everybody's doing right now and you're already inducing these really catabolic states by doing these types of workouts, I don't think that it necessarily would apply in the same way. I don't think that it would be the same type of benefit as to somebody that wasn't working out that type of way.
So I don't think we know or can know how much of a catabolic state we really want to induce at any one moment in time, but I certainly wouldn't recommend it for somebody who didn't have a really good handle on where they were at with their health specifically, and also then again somebody that was doing any kind of high-intensity workouts already that was probably catabolic most of the time.
Christopher: Jason's got another good question here. "What causes 'love handles' and how do I get rid of them? Even when I was ultra-skinny with a six-pack, I still had love handles. I also had surgery to correct gynecomastia so it could be related." Gynecomastia is problems with aromatase, so it's estrogen to testosterone ratio. All of the steroid hormones are derived from the same precursors and you don't really know which way they're going to be converted. So you could take something like pregnenolone and you could convert it into estrogen or you could convert it into testosterone. It really depends.
The problem with being overweight is, especially in men, that you tend towards the estrogen-dominant side. So you're taking these precursors and you're making estrogen with them rather than testosterone and that will affect your lean body mass, and so it becomes a vicious cycle. That's what "man boobs" are. It's like an estrogen-dominant man.
So there's a number of things -- I mean, it just always comes back to the same things that we always do. You want to get your blood sugar under control. Resistance training can be especially useful for increasing testosterone. Cardiovascular exercise like I do is probably not helpful. That pretty consistently lowers DHA and testosterone, whereas a short resistance training session would increase testosterone.
There's also some other things that Amelia suggested here, some natural aromatase inhibitors, so a high-fiber diet -- and this is true for the women as well. If you've got problems with estrogen dominance, then some of this is going to physically bind those hormones in the gut and remove the waste products. Fiber is great for that. Don't skip on the fibrous vegetables.
You don't have to go crazy with it. You don't have to take a fiber supplement or anything like that. You should get a normal amount of fiber just from your foods. Then she also suggested maca and grape seed extracts are also as good as aromatase inhibitors.
The trick to staying on top of this stuff is to keep testing. Don't guess about your testosterone. Don't guess about the conversion to estrogen. Just do the saliva test. I know it costs some money, but it's just so simple to do and it's just so much easier when you're not guessing.
Jason has another great question here actually that I have to say is unusual. "Why would someone feel/get dizzy and faint after eating a low-carb Paleo breakfast? This happened to me several times and I'm wondering if there's something I'm doing wrong."
Now, this sounds to me like Mike with his oatmeal. I mean, that's certainly the way that oatmeal makes me feel, always kind of -- so I eat breakfast at 8:00, then by 10:00 I'd be feeling hypoglycemic, which is as you described: lightheaded, quite hungry, and generally irritable. This sounds the same. Well, I'd get dizzy and faint after eating a low-carb breakfast.
Amelia stepped in here with a really great answer. I'll just read it to you. "I think you may need to add some salt and potassium to the meal." We know that electrolyte balance is really important, and most people are deficient in both potassium and magnesium. So she suggests adding an avocado and salt to taste can avoid fluid dysregulation. This is an orthostatic reaction, so that means that if you're standing up quickly and you're feeling really lightheaded that way, you're getting low blood pressure that way, then this is going to help.
Her other suggestion -- which I think is really interesting, actually -- is that with a high-fat meal, your body has to work quite a lot harder. So you eat a bunch of saturated fat and then -- fat metabolism is actually quite complex. It starts with a series of enzymes in the small intestines. It's like trying to break down these fats, emulsify them, and then they get absorbed through the enterocytes into the lymph tissue where all these big particles form.
The liver is involved [0:27:22] [Audio Glitch] fatty acids arrive at the cell where they can start to be metabolized. It's a big and it's an expensive oxygen-dependent step. So it's very thirsty, very hungry for oxygen. Beta-oxidation is the name of the pathway. So it makes sense then that if you were to eat a ton of fat that that might place quite a burden on your body and you might feel a bit like --
Julie: Especially if maybe you're lacking in any of the enzymes or the ability to use that [0:27:57] [Indiscernible].
Christopher: Yeah, so you're not doing a great job. So we know that there's all these vicious cycles. When you look at the enzymes, what is an enzyme? It's a protein, and if you've got low stomach acid and you're not digesting food well, then you won't be producing the enzymes that you need to digest it, and then you've got this weird vicious cycle that you could break the things like digestive enzymes and supplements.
So that's one possible way that you could solve this problem is try adding some more potassium and salt. Amelia's word here is, "This may be your body saying, 'Slow down for a bit while I get in this nutrition.' " Normally, like I say, it's more common for me to hear that with sugar. So you just get a massive surge of insulin and there's almost too much energy to get into the cell, and you stand up on this roller-coaster [0:28:49] [Indiscernible].
So the final question is on sleep hacking. "Do you believe you can hack your sleep? If so, what would you recommend?" The answer is a resounding "yes." I mean, I don't think that I know of anything that's more --
Julie: But I think there's also a precursor to this and that I think it's just like everything else we've talked about. I think you can hack your sleep when you're healthy or almost healthy, but I think there's a lot of things that we know that are precursors to sleep, and that is making sure your blood sugar is stable, making sure that you've done the testing and you know that your adrenals are stable. All of that, any of those things being wrong could affect your sleep, but yes, you can. Once you are into taking care of those things, then yeah, there's definitely some environmental things that's in your control that you can hack.
Christopher: Yeah. So I think what Julie is referring to is sometimes it's not fair. So I'll talk to someone on the phone. I'll say, "Well, you know that you need to be getting at least eight hours of sleep per night," and they'll say, "Yeah, of course, I know that, but I just can't. I have trouble getting to sleep. I have trouble staying asleep," and the lab tests are really good at figuring out what's going on for that person, why should that be.
So on the saliva test, I look at melatonin, and melatonin, as I've already mentioned, is a sleep hormone that gets you to sleep at night. So low melatonin, difficulty getting to sleep. The most common reason I see for this is that people are not respecting their photoperiod and they're getting bright light late at night, as I've already discussed. That's the first thing.
And then trouble staying asleep, there could be a number of different reasons. It's really tricky. Again, it could be disrupted circadian rhythms, so how cortisol is high when it really should be low and that's what's waking you up, or maybe you have a problem with fat burning and you're not producing enough energy to stay asleep throughout the night, or maybe you're lacking a B vitamin and so you can't make glucose to feed your brain during the night. That could be another reason you're not staying asleep. So that's some good examples of why it's not really fair to say to someone, "Well, you know you need eight hours of sleep per night."
But going back to the original question, I think the bedroom environment is super, duper hackable, and like many things in our modern lives, it's just not designed very well. I'll give you another example: the toilet, some weird Victorian-era design that just isn't a very good design. You want to be in the squatting position when you go, whether a man or a woman. So yeah, it doesn't make a lot of sense to me, and there's many things as well in the bedroom that just do not make any sense.
Another really good example is radio alarm clocks or anything with an LED light on it, which is pretty much every object that I can -- I look around me in this room and there's an LED light on nearly every --
Julie: This isn't our room.
Christopher: This isn't our bedroom, by the way. So, yeah, but -- I mean, the bedroom is the same though and you have to really go to great lengths.
So I'll give you an example. I've got this HEPA air filter which generates white noise and makes the air quite nice, fresh to breathe. We really like it but it's got this ludicrous panel on the front of it that's just covered in LED lights, and it was quite a lot of work to cover it all up with cardboard and tape and stuff. Then even then, we have to put a blanket over the top of it so that it's not shining daylight into the room with all these stupid LED lights.
So yeah, get rid of all of those. Get rid of your stupid radio alarm clock from 1992. Definitely, no iPhones in the room. This is what we mean by "hacking." So hacking just means altering in a way that gives you some benefit. So yeah, get rid of all the electronic devices.
Keep the room cool as well. This is another one of these triggers that entrains the circadian rhythm. We've already talked about light-dark cycles where heat is the same, and so make sure that your central heating isn't kicking on during the night. In California, we've got forced air heating. When it comes on, it's on, and it heats the house up in less than two minutes and then it turns off again, and so that will easily wake you up.
So make sure to look at your thermostat. I think it's much better to err on the cold as ice than it is, because when it heats up, that's going to be sending the signal to your brain that it's actually morning. So that's super, duper hackable. And then obviously, keeping it dark is important too, and then it becomes even more important if you're a night-shift worker or anything like that.
There's a product which I bought but ended up never using but other people swear by it. It's called EZ Blackout Windows. It's hilarious. You've got to go check out the website. It's funny, this guy selling these blackout windows, but they're basically just like a cover that you put on your window that just makes it as black as night. You won't be able to see your hand in front of your face. I think that's a really useful tool, too.
Then there's a couple of other things that you can use to hack your sleep and that's the amber blocking glasses. We mentioned this before. Amelia mentioned passionflower as something that can help with your sleep. I don't generally recommend other supplements like that. I much prefer to fix the underlying root causes, but sometimes you're desperate and in that instance, things like that can help.
So I think that's about it. I've run out of questions, unless anybody on live has got anything for me. Did you have anything else you wanted to add?
Christopher: Well, thanks very much for coming on live, guys. I really, really appreciate it. We're going to do one of these every week. It might not always be at Friday, 11:00, but that time seems to be working well for getting everybody on. I can't always get Amelia on but we'll mix and match that as necessary.
So I'll get the transcription done, there'll be a replay, and I'll send that out to you as soon as possible. Okay, thanks, everyone. Bye-bye.
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