Jasmina Aganovic transcript

Written by Christopher Kelly

Feb. 4, 2016

[0:00:00]

Christopher:    Hello and welcome to the Nourish Balance Thrive podcast. My name is Christopher Kelly and today I'm joined by Jasmina Aganovic. Hi, Jasmina.

Jasmina:    Hi, Christopher, thanks for having me.

Christopher:    No, it's my pleasure, my pleasure. So today we're going to talk about the skin microbiome which is something I'm very excited to discuss. But maybe before we get into that, why don't you tell us a little bit about yourself?

Jasmina:    Sure, happy to. I am a chemical and biological engineer by training, I graduated from MIT, and went into the world of consumer products. I had initially explored going into more of the pharmaceutical industry but consumer products was something that spoke to me a little bit more. I was endlessly fascinated by the creativity and the fast cycles there and ultimately creating a product that we interact with in a very different way and not necessarily from the place of sickness, if you will. So there was something that was definitely more suiting to my personality and my own interests.

    I worked for a few different companies that are in the space. One is a natural skin care brand called Fresh which was acquired by the luxury brand conglomerate LVMH. And then I also spent some time working at Living Proof which is a hair product company that started out of the same lab that I had worked in while I was at MIT. I also worked a little bit on the digital side of things so basically helping brands online with a company named NutraClick and really learned about the team here at AOBiome just over a year-and-a-half ago. And that's essentially my background and my story to how I got to where I am today.

Christopher:    That's cool. It seems to me that so many great things come out of MIT. And I have an undergraduate degree in Computer Science so that's how I know about MIT. But I'm sure they do amazing work in a number of areas.

Jasmina:    Absolutely. MIT is such a fascinating place and some people would describe it as the place that people who feel like their ideas are abnormal or not normal are able to go and really find that they can get an inspiring environment, an inspiring group of supportive people around them. So it's really a fascinating place with a lot of very interesting, bright, brilliant people working on very creative and interesting things. So I was very lucky to go there and I definitely enjoyed my time there as well.

Christopher:    That's amazing. How cold is it in Boston right now? Is that where you still are now?

Jasmina:    Yes. The AOBiome office is in Cambridge, actually right across the street from MIT so I did not go far. It's not too cold here thankfully. It is in the mid-40s which is obviously not warm but for mid-December we are actually pretty grateful for that.

Christopher:    Yeah, that's definitely… that's the full on California -- so I'm in Santa Cruz, near San Francisco, and that's pretty cold for me.

Jasmina:    Yes, I can imagine. I joked about how there are cafes in California in places like Santa Barbara that only have outdoor seating and I thought that was the best display of their arrogance in their weather. I'm very jealous of that. It's beautiful over there.

Christopher:    Yeah. I have to go back to the UK every now and again to kind of remind myself what good weather is, like in California you don't really have  weather.

Jasmina:    Yeah. Well I grew up in South Florida so I am a little bit like a fish out of water here but I do have to say I like having the seasons. Hot and humid all year round is not my preferred weather either.

Christopher:    Right, right. So the skin microbiome then. So I've had a number of experts on to my podcast to talk about the gut microbiome and I spend a lot of time reading papers all about the different microbes that live in our gut and I'm pretty much sure that those guys are important and there's definitely… The jury's still out on a lot of things like a lot of people are saying "Oh well, it's the microbes that made you fat" and then other people are saying, "No, actually, you got fat and then the microbes changed" and so there's lots of controversy.

    And just when I was kind of getting to the point where I just really couldn't decide or think about it anymore, I realized that there's the skin microbiome to think about as well. So let me ask you this, why would anyone care about the skin microbiome in the first place?

Jasmina:    That's a great question and the lead up to it is also a really important one and one that as a company are also very honest and transparent about. There is a lot of information out there about the gut microbiome and essentially how the gut microbiome could explain a million and one different diseases and that the next cures are in the gut microbiome. It could be true but we're definitely very honest in saying that there's a lot more research that needs to be done to really get to that point. The gut microbiome is very complex and complicated and it's very likely that never throughout history have there ever been two guts that have been exactly the same. So you can imagine the level of complexity there.

[0:05:10]

    But the important thing that we're learning is that the body is an ecosystem which is a very different way for us to view ourselves and our bodies. The gut was really where it started but it doesn't really end there. No matter how squeamish it makes us feel when we think about it, we are covered with microbes as well and there aren't distinct divisions between them. It's something that really works holistically and symbiotically throughout our whole body.

    So why someone would care about the skin microbiome, it is just another ecosystem that makes up our body and plays an important role and a variety of different ways that we're still learning about.

Christopher:    Back maybe ten years ago, I was almost a little bit obsessive-compulsive with washing, I was this sort of person that took two showers a day. If I ever did in the exercise, it'd be almost more important than food is to get into the shower. And then I guess I have a Swedish girl to thank for this, I started dating a Swedish girl who was a bit of a slight dodger and it rubbed off on me. She was like "Why do you want to take two showers a day? I don't understand." It was a lot of things that like our culture was completely different and we rubbed up on each other.

    But I really started to see her way of thinking that you really didn't need to take two hot showers with soap a day and it didn't make much difference and as time has gone by, I've got a bit more stinky, I suppose. Certainly I've got the point now where really I only take one cold shower a day and it's pretty unusual for me to use soap. I've been using some of your product, the AO + Mist, maybe we'll get into some of the details about it.

    In general I found it doesn't make that much difference if you don't… I mean sure, you don't smell of soap anymore but it's not like you start having terrible BO and people start passing out when you walk into a room. So I'm just wondering, where do you think this come from, this idea that we need to be scrubbing these microbes off with soap all the time?

Jasmina:    Well, I think if you look historically at what we've learned scientifically, we came to know bad bacteria and our only association with bacteria as it related to health and even more specifically the skin was all bad associations. And so of course by proxy we assumed that all bacteria were bad and we started introducing habits and routine into our lives to rid ourselves of that bacteria so that we could be "clean".

    But there is a really interesting thing that's happening and we've already started seeing it happen with our diets and food and obviously the gut microbiome which has triggered this new awareness for what our system needs internally and we've come to respect the need for certain types of microbes in order to be healthy internally and we actually seek out certain foods. There has been a shift in diets to incorporate more foods that have microbes in them and obviously probiotic supplements and things like that and that is now deemed as ironically "clean eating".

Christopher:    Right.

Jasmina:    It's juxtaposition, it's the opposite. Clean as it comes to the skin is still perceived as killing 99.9% of bacteria and we as humans have become programmed since childhood that we need all of these products in order to be clean. And there's a lot more complex psychology at work there with becoming a teenager and peer pressure from your friends about how you should smell and what products you should use. It sounds silly but these things actually do impact us throughout our lives.

    And that's really what has led us to where we are today. Certainly we talked to our users and it's really interesting to see them go through the shift of like "Oh, I don't actually need all of those things". And it's a big pivot for them but the reality is is that the human body, at one point in time, was able to take care of itself and that by introducing all of these modern chemistry and the dramatic shifts in our lifestyle that have thrown our internal and external microbiomes out of whack, we are removing our bodies or taking them further and further away from really enabling them to take care of themselves in a balanced and really in the way that we evolved.

[0:09:53]

Christopher:    Right, right. What is it about teenagers? I guess I was exactly the same when I was 18 or 19 but my wife, Julie, she has younger brothers and they're at that age, they walk into the room and they've just discovered like some aftershave made by Axe or something and just the smell is horrendous. And the worst thing is I have a two-year old daughter and they pick the kid off and then I got a kid that stinks of some aftershave for the next two hours.

    Yeah, I see a lot of that behavior in my past too. In particular for me was acne so I had quite a lot of spots when I was a teenager around 15, 16 and it lasted into my 20s. The solution that I eventually found through trial and error was products like Clearasil which I think was completely different in the UK, like now when I look at it it's like 2% salicylic acid or something. And that worked extremely well for me for controlling my acne and it did actually get to the point where I took antibiotics for it in my 20s which I realize now was a terrible mistake. And as I eventually realized what I was doing was probably a mistake, I weaned myself off of it slowly and it was a difficult process. I actually got worse before I got better.

    I'm just wondering now, do you know anything about the skin microbiome that might affect acne?

Jasmina:    Yeah, that's a very good question and it's one that our research partner, AOBiome is working on understanding. When you look at things like acne which is a fantastic example because the rates of acne are actually increasing pretty dramatically in the developed world.

    In the United States alone we have over 60 million people that have acne and actually it's no longer restricted to just teenagers which was the stereotype when I was a teenager, that it was just something that happened as part of puberty. But we're seeing more and more of what you experienced which is that it's lasting into the 20s and now we're seeing it happen in the 30s and 40s, particularly in women, and the New York Times did a good cover story on this.

    So acne is a fantastic example and it begs the question of why are we seeing more and more of it when our lotions and potions and prescriptions have also been increasing. We've introduced so many new products into our routines as a means to be able to solve it but when you look at the overall trends, that doesn't really seem to be the case.

    What we seem to be learning here at AOBiome and the research is early on is that the presence of the bacteria that is typically linked to acne on its own is not problematic and the same is true for even scarier bacteria like Staph bacteria. It's very likely that even the healthiest looking skin might have evidence or strains of P. acne or the Staph bacteria naturally on the skin that are not causing any problems. And the reason they're not causing any problems is because they have this community of microbes, this ecosystem that is keeping them in check and this ecosystem is well-balanced and functioning properly together. The skin is able to do what it needs to, this ecosystem is communicating properly with the environment and also with the internal body.

    But when you introduce chemistry into the picture, whether it's something harsh like a topical antibiotic or even something more common like harsh soaps, what we're finding is that some of the important peacekeeper bacteria, the ones that really help keep that balance, they are incredibly sensitive to those things. So what we end up doing is removing these peacekeepers, these keystone species with these products -- with the best intentions -- but inevitably what we end up doing is creating an imbalance in that ecosystem and this creates the opportunity for these otherwise benign kept in control bacteria to actually turn into what is more like a mob and start to create some serious problems.

    So that's what we're seeing on our end and there are so many analogies to gut diseases as well. There are very consistent patterns in the gut that are very similar to this as well.

Christopher:    So the skin care products, they're almost analogous to antibiotics. So I think most people listening to this interview will come to appreciate that overuse of antibiotics can have a negative impact on the gut microbiota.

    So do you think the skin care products are almost analogous in that respect?

[0:15:01]

Jasmina:    There is definitely an analogy there with a slightly different tweak on it. People that use products that contain things like triclosan which has gotten a lot of press, that's definitely very analogous to the antibiotic story. But it's actually a lot more common and pervasive than we think. Antibiotics are more serious, we need to get a prescription for them, they're not readily accessible.

    But the every day products that we use, not even just the antibacterial products that have become so pervasive which obviously are going to be killing a lot of the bacteria, the good and the bad, but it's also the preservatives that are in all of our products because they are needed to sit in a store shelf somewhere that is common consumer product practice. These preservatives inherently have antimicrobial activity and so if we think about all of the products that we use on a daily basis in the morning and in the evening, multiple times a day, multiple products, slathering, lathering these preservatives on our skin, you can only imagine the sort of cumulative effect that that might have over the course of a lifetime.

    But sadly we're starting to see skin irritation and inflammation show up in younger and younger children. Eczema is a great example where now we have 12% of children that have eczema and when you look at how parents are bathing their children these days, it's moving more in the trend of we're going to bathe our child every single night, children aren't going outdoors as much which is an important component of building their microbiome. And so those two definitely link to some of what we're starting to see happen in the population today.

Christopher:    Interesting. So I think at this point I'd love to introduce the fact that you do actually have a way to manipulate the skin microbiome in this spray that's available. Can you tell me a bit about that?

Jasmina:    Absolutely. I'll start with the back story because I think that that's pretty important to how the idea evolved and also the role that this plays in our lives.

    The story to the product started over 12 years ago. Our founding scientist, David Whitlock, was wondering why all mammals had a ritual habit of rolling in the dirt. So we've all seen our pets do this whether it's a dog or cat, we've seen birds do this, we've seen chickens do this, elephants have their habit of --

Christopher:    Yeah, I was going say horses.

Jasmina:    Yeah, horses. So it was actually a horse that triggered this for David. He was wondering why they had evolved that behavior and the idea is that animals when you observe the behaviors that they evolve, it has to be something that is linked to their health, their survival, that's the Darwinian side of things.

    So he ended up researching the different microbes that are present in the dirt, their mechanisms, what they consume, what they produce, and he ended up coming across this one microorganism called ammonia-oxidizing bacteria. It's a soil bacteria, you will find it in every stable microbiome, every stable ecosystem. If we were to remove this bacteria from nature, nature would suffer. There would be a build-up of toxic byproducts that are just part of the natural cycle of the Earth. This bacteria basically consumes it and converts it into good beneficial things that the environment can use.

    But the other really interesting thing that he found was that anywhere where this toxic byproducts are found and specifically ammonia. Anywhere you find them on the planet that this bacteria will be present. But the only exception to this was modern human skin which is producing ammonia constantly through our sweat. So he thought that that was a bit of an anomaly that we are a living organism that is producing this toxic byproduct and yet it doesn't exist naturally on our skin. But when we look at aboriginal tribes or less developed parts of the world, indeed you will find this bacteria on this skin.

    So David was effectively the one that connected the dots that this was once a natural part of our skin's ecosystem but we as modern humans have wiped it out in the last 50 to 75 years which is actually quite recent but if we think about how rapidly our personal care routines have evolved even in just the last 20 years, that would explain it. The bacteria are very sensitive to soaps, the surfactants specifically that are in these soaps, and preservatives.

    So that was really what triggered the founding of the company of this product. And the idea behind the company was that by reintroducing this peacekeeper keystone species to the skin is that it has an impact on the rest of the microbial system so it helps to restore balance which in turn can help the skin return back to its natural healthy state, if you will.

[0:20:14]

Christopher:    I'm familiar with this idea of a keystone species. I've had Grace Liu on my podcast and --

Jasmina:    Oh, she's great!

Christopher:    Grace Liu has become a personal friend and she lives locally so we've met a few times. She talks about keystone species a lot for the gut so things like Bifidobacteria and Akkermansia in particular.

    So you think then that this ammonia-oxidizing bacteria might be a keystone species for the skin?

Jasmina:    Absolutely. And we've done studies here to show how much a small presence of this bacteria impacts the rest of the ecosystem. So when the studies that we've done which first of all we wanted to know if we could reintroduce this bacteria to the skin. It's a sensitive species and we were wondering if we've effectively made the modern skin microbiome such a hostile environment to such a delicate little guy.

    So initially our studies focused on whether or not we could reintroduce it. And then if we could, we wanted to understand what effect that would have on the microbial ecosystem and then by proxy what we would observe if there would be any sort of tangible, visible benefit. And what we found was that yes, you can reintroduce it. We also found that by swabbing the skin pre-and post-introduction that there is a shift in the microbial community. We saw many species of good beneficial bacteria increase and many species of potentially problematic bacteria decrease so that's the influencer side of what this bacteria is doing.

    And then in terms of what we're able to see -- we don't actually see the shifts in the microbiome happening by our eyes but what we are able to see visibly varies a little bit person to person which is fascinating and very different from any product you might use. People that have very oily skin find that their skin is less oily and yet people who have very dry skin find that their skin is less dry and people who have sensitive skin find that their skin is less sensitive. So those are interesting observations that you would not typically find in any other product but this is really the rebalancing restorative effect that is this peacekeeper just doing its job.

Christopher:    Right. And then to leap back around to acne, am I right in thinking that you're doing a clinical trial to see whether this product could help with acne?

Jasmina:    Yes. AOBiome, our pharma and research partner, is currently in Phase II trials on acne which is very exciting. It would be quite ironic if after all of these years of using antibiotics as the primary treatment for acne that there was a bacteria --

Christopher:    It would be ironic but it wouldn't be surprising given what we've had with the gut already, right? We've heard the story before.

Jasmina:    Correct. With the gut it started with food, it evolved into probiotics and now there are actually pharmaceutical companies that are developing drugs based off of live bacteria to treat very serious things like C. diff which actually shows up after a round of antibiotics is taken in the hospital.

    So definitely our knowledge around this idea of balance and harmony and reintroducing necessary good bacteria is really growing and it's certainly showing that there is something compelling here. And some people are calling it the new organ system that's been discovered which I think is a really interesting way to put it as well.

Christopher:    Yeah, definitely. That's funny you should mention C. diff actually because we've seen that… So we do stool tests in our practice and they don't look for the bacteria itself, they look for some of the toxins that it produces. We've actually had a couple of people come back positive for the A and B toxins and the protocol I have is yeast called Saccharomyces boulardii. And you take it in incredibly high dosages and we've got 100% track record of getting rid of the C. diff toxins using that protocol. So we have people redo the test afterwards and yeah, it's worked 100% of the time which is fantastic.

Jasmina:    Just that?

Christopher:    Yeah. No antibiotics, no fecal transplant or anything funny like that, just this off-the-shelf probiotic called S. boulardii.

Jasmina:    That's excellent, that's great. Great.

Christopher:    So yeah, this bacteria then, the ammonia-oxidizing bacteria, do you think it actually takes up residence? One of the things I've struggled with personally, I know that Bifidobacteria are a keystone species and I've been pounding the Bifidobacteria probiotics and attempt to get some of those guys to take up residence.

[0:25:08]

    The reason I don't think I have any and this is kind of a shaky reason to be honest is I've been doing the uBiome test which I'm sure you're familiar with. I know that Bifidobacteria can show up on that test because I see plenty of results where it does show up. But I'll be damned if I can get any to show up on my test result and the same is true for my wife and even for my kid as well who has absolutely no complaints and never has.

    And so I'm wondering, you're pretty sure then that this ammonia-oxidizing bacteria will take up residence once you apply it topically?

Jasmina:    Yes, that's what our studies have shown. And actually the swabbing technique that you would need to use to have this show up would have to be a very specialized specific… well it's more like the data processing side of it. uBiome, there's a chance that it might show up in uBiome but the level of sensitivity that's needed to detect this small amount of bacteria is pretty high. So we have to use a very specialized sequencing technique in order to pick up on the bacteria.

    But this just confirms how truly a keystone species it is because keystone species typically don't need to be present in very large amounts at all. In fact the analogy is like the bumblebee where the bumblebee is we don't interact or see them every single day but if they were removed from the environment that so many other ecosystems would crumble after them.

    So our studies have shown that they can be reintroduced and recolonize the skin and how long they're there really depends largely on your routine. We have some users that are very self aware of using products that are biome-friendly whether they are our products that we've formulated or some more like natural DIY products that they might be making at home for themselves. And if that's the case, then it's very likely that the bacteria is just constantly there and that they are growing their own little colony there as crazy and bizarre as that might sound.

    But then we have people on the other end of the spectrum that are still continuing on with more conventional products and it's likely that almost every day they're kind of starting their colony over again. And even in that scenario, they are still seeing benefits and the reason they're still seeing benefits is because the bacteria, it's a living organism that is on your skin doing its work. The fact that it's doing its work even if it's on there for 8, 10, 12 hours, there are still benefits that your skin will notice and having them be there for 8, 10, 12 hours is still 8, 10, 12 hours that the peace is being kept on your skin. And by washing and starting over, taking a shower or applying products or whatever that lasts all of ten minutes but then immediately reapplying the peacekeeper it really minimizes the window for that potentially bad or problematic bacteria to really turn into a mob and start to cause problems.

    So it's really about their presence even in shorter periods of time really delivering benefits. It doesn't have to be a colony and it doesn't have to be there for multiple days or weeks on end. But certainly people see shifts in efficacy the more and the longer they use the product, that's definitely for sure.

Christopher:    Okay. So let's talk about stinky armpits because I'm sure most of the athletes listening to this will know all about stinky armpits with being people that sweat a bit more than the average person.

    I guess my story here is exactly the same. I used to use a ton of deodorant and then somebody pointed out that maybe spraying an aerosol in your face every morning or twice a day wasn't perhaps such a great thing. And so I moved over to some of the stick deodorants and then I thought I had one that was kind of all-natural inadvertent common sense, then I realized I've been rubbing aluminum into my armpits for the last year and I'm like "Ugh, I really need to start reading ingredients list on things."

    And in the end I found it so difficult to find a good deodorant I just stopped using one altogether and it was the same sort of situation. So I have a history of poor food choices which are now much better. I've had really good results with the Paleo diet and I'm pretty sure that played a part in it. I think I stank more when I made poor food choices.

Jasmina:    Absolutely, yes.

Christopher:    So now I've got to the point where I don't use any deodorant at all and for the last few weeks I've been using the AOBiome spray. I did the wife test yesterday and she said "Well it smells like an armpit but you're not going to knock anyone out when you walk into a room with that" and it's been several weeks since I've washed my armpits with soap and water. I ride my bike quite a lot so I think that's quite an achievement.

    But do you think that's a realistic expectation for athletes that maybe they can stop using deodorant in favor of this spray?

[0:30:28]

Jasmina:    Yeah. Well, about 60% of our users find that they are able to move off of deodorant which we view as a fantastic feat because you already mentioned a lot of the problems and concerns that are out there with deodorant.

    So we do have a subset of users that start using the Mist because they are very motivated to move off of their deodorant. You're also touching on some very interesting issues that deal with body odor. We have become very conditioned to believe that we need to smell like Freesia or some sort of cologne, that that is what smelling clean actually is. We definitely have had people say "I definitely don't smell but I smell like myself. And when I put my clothes in the laundry hamper I smell like a human being and it's not BO, it's not a bad smell, it's not an unattractive smell" -- it's just your smell. And then there are some people that say "I don't smell a thing."

    So there are varying degrees to that and part of that is the microbiome and that ecosystem that's happening in the underarms definitely there's going to be part of it that's tied to food or diet. And this is an area that we are very interested and gaining a better understanding of. So we're thrilled that 60% of our users are able to move off of deodorant and we definitely want to understand what's happening with the other 40%.

    We think that there's an element of, the triclosan that's typically found in many of these products, that actually stays in the skin for quite a while so that definitely is going to mitigate the likelihood of this bacteria doing its job pretty significantly. So we want to understand that there's a pattern that's there with some of the people who are not as strong of a responder as we would hope. Or if there are other products that they are using in their life or if there is a specific kind of microbiome profile for that area and this is going to be one of the things that we're going to be testing through.

    We have this program called AO Labs where we have people who participate in experiments to help us gain a better understanding of not only a product but efficacy and usage and things like that. And we have a lot of people who are experimenters, tinkerers and just generally very curious about this as a topic and these are the people that we have participating in labs.

    So it's a very interesting conversation and I have definitely become desensitized by talking about body odor or armpits or any of that. It is no big deal to me.

Christopher:    Yeah. I think there is a strong psychological component and I wonder whether that's the other people who are not having such great results weaning themselves off of deodorant is that they're struggling with the psychological component. And yeah, I completely agree. My wife doesn't use deodorant anymore either and I get the same experience, I guess. When I stick my nose in her armpit it smells like an armpit but it also smells like my wife, not like a bunch of flowers or something else that some product manufacturer tells me should smell good and that's very much a kind of a trained thing that you get used to. Yeah, I think that's a normal thing for an armpit to smell like an armpit.

    The other thing I notice all the time, I already mentioned I'm a mountain biker. I ride along the trails in the redwoods here in Santa Cruz and quite often I can smell a guy 200 yards before I can see him because all of his kit is being washed within an inch of its life by him or his wife and they use these really strong smelling laundry detergents which is very much a US thing actually. When you go to UK they don't stink as much, the laundry detergents. And then the smell, it's actually like a waft, like a trail of smell that's left along the trail. It's like this is weird, when did this become the new norm that humans were supposed to smell like, it's just crazy.

Jasmina:    Exactly, exactly. And yeah, I do want to be clear here in not only our product but the company proposition or this idea is it is not about willing to be smelly and I've definitely gotten the sense from people like "Oh, if you're not using deodorant I don't care what the spray is." You must be willing to be a little bit smelly and this whole talk of smelling like a human, that means that you're willing to have a little bit of BO…

[0:35:04]

    We're very realistic, we are a company, we are selling a product and we know that it needs to deliver on a promise. And so we are very matter-of-fact about.. like we get it -- people are not going to walk around smelling like BO for multiple days, even a day. We have jobs, we interact with people, we know that it's completely impractical so we would not be recommending that people use this as a deodorant if we didn't feel like it delivered. And certainly this is why we really want to understand what's happening in the remaining 40% where half of them feel like they can use deodorant at least like every other day or every three days, then the other half being just plain non-responders. We really want to understand what's going on there.

    But I did want to emphasize that yeah, like human beings we're not created to be smelly, we were not created to have BO. It's really just kind of we've thrown this ecosystem out of whack and we've become very conditioned by what we believe is normal and what the societal norm is. And there's more conversation around less is more and backing off a little bit which is very promising.

Christopher:    Right, and it is a very plausible mechanism here with the bacteria. So you're putting the bacteria on your skin, the bacteria is metabolizing the ammonia and turning into nitric oxide. So there's a clear biochemical thing going on here too, it's not just a placebo spray and then you're supposed to get on with the fact that you stink.

Jasmina:    Absolutely. And I can elaborate a little bit more on the mechanism if you'd like.

Christopher:    Yes, of course, please do.

Jasmina:    So you've got it correct, it is consuming the ammonia that is in our sweat. Ammonia in and of itself is irritating to the skin, it causes things like diaper rash because the baby's bum just sweats so much in that diaper and if that sweat accumulates over time the ammonia can really irritate the skin. So it's high-pH, it's irritating, it can also come with a smell but by and large our sweat does not smell on its own.

    The bacteria consumes that ammonia and then produces a few different byproducts, two to be exact: one that is nitrite which has antibacterial activity which in and of itself is ironic -- it's a bacteria producing antibacterial. But it has some selective what seems to help keep bad bacteria in check, things like odor-causing bacteria is what we see in the underarm area where we see the levels of that type of bacteria dramatically decrease which is where we find people can move off of deodorant.

    And then there's nitric oxide which you had mentioned is a very important signaling molecule, probably very important to a lot of athletes and something that probably down the line we're very interested in exploring as a company as well because it's an important part of biology.

Christopher:    Yeah, I was going to ask you that. So is there any chance that this nitric oxide becoming systemic? So the skin is a barrier that's really designed to keep things out so I'm wondering, would any of that nitric oxide become systemic?

Jasmina:    David certainly thinks so and I will be honest in saying that he is more excited about nitric oxide than he is about the bacteria and improvements to the appearance of the skin. We are focusing on inflammatory skin disorders right now, the research side of the company is, and we're also just at the beginning points of starting to understand how much nitric oxide is produced and how much of it is absorbed and we have a ways to go there. So can't quite answer the question now but hopefully at some point in the future we can.

Christopher:    Yeah, that's really interesting. And the diaper rash thing is something that I'm also very interested in. I don't know how we dodged this bullet with our daughter, she's never had a diaper rash but at the same time we've never used any of the products -- I don't even know what they are -- that stuff, that cream you're supposed to put on your baby's bum.

Jasmina:    Yeah. It's ironic but even if you talk to dermatologists, dermatologists will tell you that the people who have the least amount of problems also use the least amount of products.

Christopher:    Interesting. I feel like we dodged a number of bullets. We had this baby just at the time when we were figuring everything out or had figured things out and so we just did use the same strategies that we had for ourselves, the Paleo diet, no grains, no dairy, no cow's milk or anything like that. Ivy's only ever been breastfed, she's never had milk out of a bottle or any other animal's milk or anything like that.

    And yeah, I thought could we use this for her with the nappies but I don't really think she has the need. But it is another application right, so with the baby like maybe some time sitting in their own feces or urine you get the same buildup of ammonia and then maybe the ammonia-oxidizing bacteria could be helpful in that situation.

[0:40:22]

Jasmina:    Yeah, we're interested in exploring that as a company. And I wouldn't be surprised to hear that your child spends more time outdoors than the average American child and that also I think is contributing to the benefits that she's seeing. I don't even want to call them benefits because she's growing like a normal child should but fewer children have that kind of upbringing.

    Our bacteria is a soil bacteria so when we once lived in the environment we were way more immersed in the environment, we were walking barefoot, we were swimming in lakes and rivers and streams and we were constantly inoculating ourselves with this bacteria. But now we've created elaborate ways to separate the environment from us and we've introduced all of this chemistry and our lifestyles have changed so much that that is how we lost this bacteria from the skin. And modern living, particularly in urban environments, doesn't enable us to spend as much time outdoors as we would like which is important for our internal and external system.

    So a little bit of why we call the brand Mother Dirt is to reconnect with that kind of things and also the time when we were kids and it was okay to play and to get dirty outside. We don't see that as much these days but everyone can relate to that some level of nostalgia.

Christopher:    Yeah, definitely. She does spend a lot of time outdoors. We're very lucky to live in the redwoods here and it's good soil, like the soil just off the trail is just basically whatever the loam comes off the redwood trees and it's really deep and very lovely, it smells good, and she gets plenty of time to play in that stuff. I've not really thought about that too much but yeah, we are quite lucky.

Jasmina:    Yeah, that's great.

Christopher:    So I'm just thinking about some of our clients, that maybe they work in an environment where they're forced to use like soaps and the hand sanitizers in particular or maybe latex gloves and all these kinds of things. I'm sure there are lots and lots of situation like the next time I'd have a surgery I'd really like it if the surgeon were to scrub his hands with soap obviously. But maybe there are some other people who are still forced to use hand sanitizer every two seconds even if they're not performing surgery. So there's a million shades of gray here.

    So what can you do for those people, say they're sold on the idea that they shouldn't be using hand sanitizer every ten minutes but they're forced to because of their work?

Jasmina:    Yeah, and we realize that that's the reality and absolutely you want in a hospital, in a surgery room, in those scenarios you want it to be a sterile environment and sterile as we truly mean it. You want your doctor to scrub his hands completely free of absolutely everything.

    Going back to your question, there are people who unfortunately need that to be part of their professional living. So the one piece of advice I would give to them is before they go to bed at night spray some of the AO + Mist on their hands or the areas where they need to constantly sterilize and that's it. That's the easiest thing that can do so while they're sleeping the bacteria are very active at night time. Areas like the hands have a lot of sweat glands so that's one of the areas where the bacteria would naturally colonize. At least it's eight solid hours hopefully that the bacteria is there doing its work and helping create like a restorative balance there before they have to wake up the next day and do it all over again.

    So that would really be the one piece of advice. And we do have people who have wrecked hands because they have to constantly use hand sanitizer so that's been what we've been recommending to them and they've been thrilled.

Christopher:    Oh, really, so they've had good results. I was just about to say if you were somebody who recognize this story I'd love for you to try this product and see what happens. But yeah, I've heard about people, the alcohol causes drying and cracking and then they start getting fungal infections and all these kinds of stuff -- it's horrendous. So you've heard good things from people that have been using the spray for this reason.

Jasmina:    Yes, people find that spraying it on their skin especially before going to bed is something that is so helpful. And this goes back to the people with the dry skin find that their skin is less dry, oily skin finds that their skin is less oily, sensitive skin finds that their skin is less sensitive. It really has a rebalancing effect particularly in an extreme scenario like that.

[0:45:02]

Christopher:    Wow, that's great. So talk to me a little bit about the trial for eczema, how do you think this bacteria might be helping or how the product might be helping for eczema?

Jasmina:    Well, I'll be very clear, Mother Dirt products right now are sold as cosmetic products. Our research partner, AOBiome, is the one that is researching the potential effect of the product on things like eczema and acne. And of course we want to be very transparent that we cannot make claims or insinuations until we go through that process. We're a scientifically-founded and driven company and we definitely want to abide by the rules that are in that space.

    So to answer your question, we don't know yet. Anyone who is interested in trying the product is able to try it of their own volition, we make no commitments there, and whatever their experience is we are thrilled and interested to hear about it. But the space that we're operating in is inflammatory skin disorders and inflammation seems to be at the root cause of so many things for the gut obviously and the skin.

    And the macro-hypothesis that surrounds both Mother Dirt and AOBiome is that if we can restore balance to the microbial ecosystem of the skin that we can get to the root causes of inflammation and hopefully help resolve those issues along the way. So that's the overarching hypothesis that we are really working on proving and understanding here as a company.

Christopher:    Interesting. So there is a clinical study underway and at some point maybe FDA approval then to make these claims about the product?

Jasmina:    Right now we are focusing on acne and hopefully in the near future we will be starting the process for atopic dermatitis which we know as eczema.

Christopher:    Okay. Well this has been fantastic.

Jasmina:    Thanks.

Christopher:    Where can people go to find out more about the product and your work? Do you have any other resources that you could point people at to learn more about the skin microbiome? And of course anything you mention I will link in the show notes.

Jasmina:    Yes, thank you, Chris. People are more than welcome to go to Mother Dirt site. There they can find information about our products and also a little bit about the science. If they are really interested in doing a deep dive on this science they are welcome to visit our research partner's website which is AOBiome. So the two links are motherdirt.com and aobiome.com and I'll be sure to send them over to you so that you can include them as well.

Christopher:    Excellent! Well I think it's a really exciting product and I very much hope that it's successful. I think you're doing fantastic work.

Jasmina:    Thank you, we really appreciate that, we really do.

Christopher:    And thank you so much for your time that you've given generously here for the podcast. I'm very much appreciative of that as well, thank you.

Jasmina:    Likewise, likewise. I know it's a busy time of year as well so I really appreciate the effort on your end as well.

Christopher:    I'm sure many of you that listened to this interview have got some great ideas about how you might be able to manipulate your skin microbiome. And I wanted to let you know that the product I've been using over the last few weeks is called AO + Mist. It's the ammonia-oxidizing bacteria in a liquid form in a bottle. You can spray this onto your skin, you can spray it on your armpits, you can spray it on your baby's bum. In the shop they also have face and body cleanser and they have shampoo and they have bundles.

    And I wanted to let you know that I have a discount code. That code is NBT25 and that would get you 25% off all their products. And as someone who sells supplements for a living, I can tell you that is a fantastic discount. So NBT25, I will link to everything on the show notes and that code is going to expire at the end of February so get on it, get something ordered now. Let me know how it goes, I really want to know how it works for you.

[0:49:09]    End of Audio

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