Written by Christopher Kelly
Nov. 18, 2016
[0:00:00]
Christopher: Hello and welcome to the Nourish Balance Thrive Podcast. My name is Christopher Kelly and today I'm joined by Barry Murray. Hi, Barry.
Barry: Hey, Chris.
Christopher: Good, good. I'm excited to have you. Thank you for joining me today. Unfortunately, we just missed out. I really wanted, in fact, Tommy really wanted Barry for the Keto Summit and somehow my invitation got lost and it ended up not happening. And so we've got this podcast which you can always think of as a bonus episode of the Keto Summit, which I'm very excited to still get to talk to you after all, Barry. Thank you for joining me today.
Barry: Yeah, cheers. I felt like I was this center forward who was dropped from the team last minute.
Christopher: It was nothing personal, I promise. At the end of the day we needed to get all those talks and the transcripts burned onto USB sticks and manufactured so we had to draw the deadline somewhere.
Barry: Yeah, exactly. And like you said, this podcast [0:00:48] [Audio Glitch].
Christopher: Yeah. So, tell me about yourself. Tell me about your background, how you got into the work that you're doing today.
Barry: I'm chemist by trade. I actually studied Chemistry and Biochemistry in the university first and went into the world of pharmaceuticals for five, six years. Anyway, cut a long story short, I was not really good at working in the corporate world and I had just a deep interest in, at that time, just general nutrition, being healthy. And I was into triathlons at that time. I was into a bit of running and cycling, blah, blah, blah.
Anyway, I went back and I did masters in sports nutrition and then I kind of just set up my own private consultancy practice and very slowly got very into the endurance aspect of sports and sports nutrition and that led me to working with a lot of cyclists, a lot of triathletes. And the more I work with a cyclist the more I just got contacts and networks and I ended up moving up, let's say, to the pro, professional level. I started working for teams like BMC.
Then over the last few years, through my own research and through my own competition, which is I race in ultramarathons, I just kind of become very, I guess, specific for endurance stroke, ultra endurance nutrition and it's kind of my expert areas, so to speak. And then I just, like yourself and like a lot of people who are into the general health and fitness, I've just been into everything from Paleo to low carb diets to all that kind of stuff.
Christopher: Talk to me about the gap between your formal education and what you've taught yourself since graduating.
Barry: Yeah. I guess, let's just say I had four years first doing my bachelor's degree and then I was five, six years working as a chemist and then I was a year full time doing my masters. The last seven, eight years, I've been basically a solo practitioner. What I will say is over those last seven or eight years is where I've learned and studied and researched and practiced the most amount of information and knowledge and, I guess, wisdom maybe you could call it now.
I would say through everything from papers to blogs to articles to books, I've just read a lot and I've studied a lot and I continue to do it almost every day. And then what I was doing was practicing that myself in the field and then practicing at high level with elite athletes. I was constantly looking at what the book was saying and what the papers were saying and even what the, let's say, the latest even literature was saying, not even the kind of, let's say, peer reviewed stuff but even just, let's say, forward thinking people. I would be following a lot of the forward thinking kind of material.
I was then just trying to, let's say, connect everything and join the dots so to speak through putting together the theory and then trying to see how it's all working in the field at a high level. A lot of the learning has taken part over the last kid of seven, eight years.
Christopher: And so you've started with experimentation on yourself before you go to clients?
Barry: Yeah. I think it's an extra boat. I really do like -- I mean, I am a big believer in practicing what you preach and also having skin in the game. So, it's like everything that we read and that we do and every theory and strategy we come up the best way to put that to the test is on yourself in the field and learning from the feel and the experience of it. That's what I would start with and that's what gives me -- It's like a classic N equals one situation. But I'm able to then do that with, say, five or six high performance athletes, pro cyclists, world class ultra distance guys and then I have an N equals six or N equals seven. Then things start becoming a bit more real.
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Christopher: That's amazing. And talk to me about your approach. What approach do you take with your own running in terms of the diet and lifestyle and anything else that you think is important?
Barry: What pros…?
Christopher: With yourself.
Barry: As in…?
Christopher: Yes, so what approach do you take with your diet, with anything else that you think is important for endurance performance?
Barry: Okay. Yeah. Well, I mean, look, diet wise, I mean, a lot of your listeners are going to know that it's going to be very, I'll just say, Paleo-esque, for starters. Secondly, it's going to be low to low-ish carbohydrate, high fat and cyclical ketogenic. Then you can go down the line of being seasonal and periodized training based on the time of the year and stuff like that. Periodized nutrition, shall we say. Very quickly on the diet, it's going to be low carb, high fat, dabbling in things like ketogenesis and then, obviously, applying a very structured approach to the way I train and how I ate basically around training and I've obviously done a huge amount of research into depleted training or fasted state training.
And then lifestyle wise, obviously, the other things that you've probably spent a lot of time speaking to other people on your podcast about everything from sleep to stress to earthing and grounding and all that kind of stuff.
Christopher: Talk to me about the depleted or fasted training. Why would you want to do it and how do you do it?
Barry: Yeah. I mean, this is kind of a five or six year journey for me and it started off with me looking at some basic studies that were showing how, what they were calling as glycogen depleted training. That's just simply having very low carbohydrate stores. That was doing things like increasing the activity levels of certain fat transporters and enzymes and things like L-Carnitine and then how that was leading to kind of genetic expressions with the Sirtuins and how that was increasing things like mitochondrial biogenesis.
All this was kind of looking and like sounded very -- It was looking very interesting to me but there was no direct performance improvement coming from a lot of the studies. But I was just fascinated with the biochemistry and the physiology of it. So, I started doing things like going out on my long bike ride at the weekends, say a three or four hour ride and just going out with no food, maybe black coffee. I then was doing kind of early runs, again fasted. And then I started just over months through years really pushing the boat out and realizing the benefits that it was giving me in terms of my efficiency and let's just call it the size of my engine and how it was allowing me to do things like win ultra marathon 100 mile races.
Yeah, as I said, I tied that in with various things with, obviously, the aspects of just simply fasting as opposed to training in a fasted state. I was looking at intermittent fasting and autophagy and the benefits that that was bringing as well. But primarily, it involved, first of all, me looking at the physiology and going, "Right, there's something to this training in a fasted state." And secondly, then doing it, I was realizing that progressively I was getting more and more gains from it.
Christopher: And how did you measure the gains?
Barry: Various ways. I mean, simple gains, Chris, I like to apply a lot of my, let's say, measuring tactics, whatever you want to call them, based on feels. So, if I was able to do something like go out on my typical long two-hour, three-hour mountain runs at the weekend and I'd be with similar guys at the fitness level who were, let's say, after two hours feeling a bit of a bonk or a bit of a low and having to take a gel or whatever, and I was not feeling any kind of drop in energy or any kind of appetite, no craving or anything for food full stop.
And then being able to race without eating before the race and just turning up at the race like early in the morning and going off in 100 kilometer race and not eating for the first four or five hours, not by forcing myself but simply not because -- Just because I simply didn't feel like eating. The gains that that was bringing me in terms of my metabolic efficiency, the lack of any GI problems because of the no need to eat much, basically, lower body composition, as in lower body fat composition. So, that's reduction on body fat and very lean physique.
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Had done some, obviously, various different urine and blood ketone measures and I'd seen constant kind of two, three millimole readings, sometimes higher depending on the time of the day or whatever I've done. But my interest and my focus and my measurements were basically done on how fat adapted I was becoming. My fat adaption was being measured by my performance on long distance races, my hunger or lack of hunger during long training sessions, and my ability then to simply be able to just generally perform and train hard without needing or having the urge to be eating very much carbohydrates.
I think that's one of the biggest signs in itself. If you're able to do whatever it is your standard training is for whatever sport you're doing, and if you have to do it without feeling the need for any sort of carbohydrate intake so to speak or very low level, that just means that your body is very efficient at producing energy through predominantly a fat metabolism pathway.
Christopher: I recognize many of the benefits that you described on my own personal experience on the bike. And I've done the same, race my bike every day and not needing to eat any food on the bike, just drank plain water and that was great. But I've never done any fasted training. Do you think there's any particular benefit to the fasted training in itself or do you think that you can get the same benefit by eating a high fat diet and doing those long rides? Did you know you're getting the benefit just because you recognize some of those nice things that you talked about or do you really need to do the fasted training?
Barry: I think the fasted training up regulates everything to just a higher -- let's put it this way -- to a higher level. If you look at the physiology of it, various things -- Being fasted is basically switching on a lot of stressors. And when stressors are switched on that obviously brings adaptation. So one of the stressors that get switched on when you are in a fasted state and then exercising is AMP kinase. And if you look at what AMP kinase then does is it switches on the activity of fat metabolizing enzymes.
If that's happening then -- There's a lot of signaling mechanisms being put in place the minute you are going fasted into exercise. Now, you can get a lot of the benefits from, let's just call it the upregulating the rate at which fat is metabolized, can be done obviously with higher fat lower carb diet. It can be done with general intermittent fasting. But the actual fasted state situation where you're actually going into, you're training and putting the body in a higher stressed state is massively upregulating, like I said, all of those specific pathway of beta-oxidation, lipolysis first and then beta-oxidation.
And then they've shown things like you're getting increased mitochondrial biogenesis from doing that. Say, like you're going off on your bike for two or three hours and you go out with low carb meal beforehand. But if you don't eat beforehand, anything before that ride, then you're in the complete fasted state and then you're getting, like I said, you're going to get more adaptations taking place because you're going to get a higher stress response from that training session.
Christopher: Okay. I don't know how to get past this. It's something I'm obviously interested in because there's a performance benefit to be had but I think I suffer from a little bit of post traumatic stress disorder from my high carb days where I couldn't go more than 40 minutes without consuming a maltodextrin gel without severe hypoglycemic symptoms. And now I can do long rides without eating anything but I still have my breakfast before I go out. How do you get your feet wet? How did you get into this?
Barry: Yeah. That's a really good point because that is probably, like that's the biggest kind of -- The same opinion I found with a lot of people. I say it's two things. The first thing is it's a simple mental shift. It's like we've been brought up all of our lives thinking breakfast is the most important meal of the day. And certainly, from a sporting perspective, it's like don't go out the door until you're filled up. That's a real mental shift. But then if you -- Like I would say to people understand the pathway, understand fat oxidation. And if you understand fat oxidation and you see -- just do the number calculation of calories that you can burn if you're 10% body fat and you're 70 kilos, 75 kilos, whatever.
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Look at the fat oxidation pathway. Look at how it works and how it goes into the mitochondria, how fatty acids get converted to acetyl coenzyme A and go into the Krebs cycle. And then you kind of realize, look, if I just switch all that on I've got loads of fuel. The second thing is that the biggest mistake people make is that today you can hear all these things on podcasts and you can read a blog and somebody is doing some -- Peter Attia is doing a five-day fast and then going on a 200 kilometer cycle or something crazy like that.
People read these things and they see what these people are doing and they go, "Right, well, this is what we have to do in order to become fat-adapted or keto-adapted or whatever." But that's not the way to do it. What I've done and what I try and teach people is to do it in a way more progressive manner. So, do things like if, like you said, you're going out at the weekend on your bike or [0:15:58] [Indiscernible] at the weekend is go out with no food but start eating maybe what you would typically eat on the bike, not necessarily gels but just some natural foods, after say an hour.
And do that then for a few weeks. But then go, "Right, I'm feeling pretty good on this ride, anyway. So, the next time I'm going to wait for 90 minutes." And then I'm going to wait for two hours. And then I'm going to see -- And then go through months of just building it up so that you're going out in the fasted state but then you're then consuming whatever foods, like just call it say some fruit or some naturally homemade rice cakes or whatever it may be, so that you are still consuming something but that the signal switches have been, let's say, activated by going out in the fasted state. I would say mental shift first and I'd say, secondly, then go progressively into it. Don't go out in your five-hour ride with a bottle of water and no food beforehand.
Christopher: That's a really good idea. Yeah, I can see that now. If you just start to leave a house on a Saturday morning to ride with your buddies and you know you got some food in your back pocket but you haven't had any breakfast you know you're going to be okay.
Barry: Yeah, exactly.
Christopher: I'm guessing that you're going to quickly get to the point where you don't even think about the food that's in your back pocket.
Barry: Exactly. And that will come with time but it does need to be done progressively.
Christopher: Right. And so I have to ask you about the pro cyclists that you work with because I realize that what I did was stupid and probably exceptional and I've noticed that a lot of the guys that ride with, they kind of like this anyway. It's their default state. They never really got into maltodextrin gels and putting a ton of stuff in their bottles and carrying a load of food in their back pockets.
Those guys that have been like that naturally, they tend to be the most talented cyclists anyway. And I wondered whether that was what you see in the professionals. They look at you but you say, "Oh, you got to be a really good fat burner." And they're just like looking at you funny. "What are you talking about? That's what I've been doing all this time anyway." Is that what you see or do you have to just put a lot of effort into correcting the pros?
Barry: Ironically, I would say -- Right. I mean, look, I lived for two years in Italy full time working with BMC and then also work with various other pro cyclists from other teams and then just local guys in the area. I was living outside Florence. I've gotten to know the pros, let's say, the pro cyclists as in their way of life, their attitudes, their knowledge and their understanding of things. And I would say that this is the general because there are some good guys.
But in general, I would say their knowledge and understanding of nutrition is backward and very conventional. I was actually kind of taken back when I realized how un-advanced they were in terms of their strategies and understanding of nutrition and how, like I said, they were very much high carb low fat, don't twitch anything with saturated fat in it. And it's only seeping through over the last couple of years the, let's say, the lower carb higher fat Paleo type way of eating.
Because, unfortunately, professional cycling for many years has been let's call drowned in doping and nutrition wasn't deemed hugely -- Honestly, this is it. I only started getting requests from pro cycling teams and pro cyclists themselves like four years ago. And before then it's like a lot of teams didn't even have their own nutritionists. Now, in the Pro Peloto maybe half the teams or at least three quarters of the teams have their own nutritionists.
Christopher: Right. And so what do you do if you're on a team that doesn't have a nutritionist?
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Barry: Basically, what you are left with is the doctor and the [0:20:06] [Indiscernible] instructions which is usually pound as much high sugar stuff into you as much as possible, don't touch anything at the hotel unless it's pasta and chicken, and fuel on a basket full of bread and Nutella and cereals in the morning. Honestly, it is that poor. It's old school doctor mentality and then it's [0:20:31] [Indiscernible] which are kind of the caretakers of the riders. The [0:20:36] [Indiscernible] are very old school as well. They're very much brought up in the bowl of pasta three hours before the race kind of thing as well.
Christopher: And how do the riders survive on a diet like that? Do they still do well in spite of that?
Barry: Well, here's a quick summary. First of all, a lot of the riders, let's say, the way they would live and eat themselves at home, a lot of them would obviously have a much better nutrition generally whole food nutrition and nowadays have this approach to the way they eat. And secondly, the high performing athlete, the full time training athlete doing an endurance big volume sport simply by default have gotten a lot of, say, the adaptations in place for fat burning.
And I would also say a lot of top athletes have already been doing a lot of the strategies, let's say, without them even knowing it, doing things like -- They would not know lypolysis is or acetyl coenzyme A. But they would turn up in the morning because they had no time for breakfast with just an espresso and go on a three-hour ride. They would do things like have a salad after their five-hour ride because they wanted to lose weight. They're going very low carb on certain days. They didn't know what carbohydrate did. They didn't know about insulin, leptin or various sort of hormonal stuff, but a lot of them doing, let's say a lot of these advanced strategies without them even knowing it.
Christopher: Right. And so what about the upper echelons of the pro cyclist world, do they have nutritionists that are fully versed on low carb high fat diets and intermittent fasting and all of that?
Barry: Well, look, I mean, when I was working with DMC I was deemed a bit left or center, and this was only three years ago. So, you will be surprised. I mean, a lot of your listeners and people you work with are well versed in it and a lot of what I'm saying is not news to them. But I'm telling you, I could go to a lot of the world tour professional cycling teams and they will be scared of the stuff that I'm talking about here.
Only a couple of the teams have got guys who are like Team Sky are using a lot of these principles. I know the nutritionists. I haven't met him but I know of the nutritionist for Team Sky and he's pretty well versed in depleted training and cyclical carbohydrate intake and stuff like that. Like I said, it is trickling through but for the most part the honest answer is that I'm still looked on as a bit of a freak.
Christopher: Can you tell me about a time where you've seen this play out in the tactics in a road race? Has there ever been a hilly road race where you've seen a rider do much better because they didn't have to go back to the car for some food or anything like that?
Barry: I mean, there's been various things that I've -- they're more observations, obviously, and it's very anecdotal at this stage because it's so hard, really, to ascertain what's going on inside a pro cyclist's body during a race. I mean, a guy, an English guy, that a lot of people would know of is Steve Cummings and he's been really into nutrition for several years. What I would say is a lot of the adaptation mechanisms do take a long time. I mean, if any of you are, yourself, have ever listened of Jack Kruse's stuff, he will say he's got a 24 to 36-month time frame on becoming very highly fat adapted or ketotic as well. So that's two to three years obviously.
Christopher: Yeah, that's consistent with my experience.
Barry: Yeah. And what I'm finding is a lot of the athletes that came to me several years ago, it's taking them a few years to really see, find success. And like you know, nutrition is only one part of the, one branch of the tree. But, I mean, certain guys that have came to me over the years, they're now winning races and Steve Cummings is winning Tour de France stages and stuff like that but it's only an example of how you can kind of see how things work but you can never pinpoint any one success on the field or on the track or whatever down to one thing.
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Christopher: Right. And how do you sell this to the riders? So, if I've only got one shot of this and I'm 21 years old and this might be it, I don't want to start something that made your dividends in three years time. How do you sell it?
Barry: It's hard. It's a hard sell. That's why only a few riders are doing it and that's why I'm not basically [0:25:21] [Audio Glitch] to everybody because people want quick fixes these days and they want success. This way of eating and this way living is a long term thing. But here's the only thing I can sell. The way I'd sell it is that to anyone who's regularly training and athletic and fit I would say that time frame of 24 to 36 months can be reduced. I've seen guys becoming fat adapted, let's say, full time training guys, athletes, in a more of a six to 12-month time frame as opposed to two years.
So with proper structure, with a change in, obviously, all the nutrition stuff and then a change in training and [0:26:09] [Audio Glitch] habits, the gains can come quicker. It's also good when the guys are younger because if you've got a, whatever, 22 or 23-year old athlete who starts changing things at that stage then he's got pretty much like the rest bulk of his career to race and compete. Yes, it's harder for athletes who've been doing their thing their own way for whatever and they're in their mid-30s and then someone like me comes along and says, "Look, change everything." It's hard for them to make those changes.
Christopher: Of course. And do you see guys or do you ask guys to train in a low carb state and then race in a high carb state? Have you ever seen that played out to be an advantage?
Barry: Yes and that is the general approach taken by, I would say, certainly at the pro cycling level. It's because, well, there's various practical aspects that prevent people from being continuously low carb or continuously ketotic. It's a lot about the environment and a lot about the practicalities of where you're staying, what food is being delivered, presented to you, cooked to you. If you're racing a Tour de France with a team of eight riders, nine riders, and you're traveling from hotel to hotel and you're being given buffets of rices and potatoes and pasta, meats, and then you're on the bus and you're being given maltodextrin shakes and fruit juices and fruits and all that kind of stuff, it's hard to go, "Look, I'm just going to stick to my coconut oil here and my butter."
And what I would also say is that one of the biggest aspects that is being overlooked, I think, in the world of keto and fat adaptation is what are known as, say pro cyclists, when the stress and the intensity of competition increases is that there's a massive increase in the, let's call it the consumption of brain sugar or brain glucose. I'll put it this way. I found that guys can go out to five or six-hour training rides on very low carb do fine and then they do a four or five hour flat out stage race where there's -- it's in the Peloton, they're stressed, there's crashes, there's tactics, everything.
They rate of need for like glucose goes rapidly up. It's a combination of consumption of brain glucose and, obviously, just simply the higher glycolytic state that they're in as well.
Christopher: And then how would you reintroduce carbs then to someone who's going to race high? What's the time frame? Is it weeks or months or how does it work?
Barry: No. I mean, I think, anyone competing who's generally following a low carb high fat diet in terms of -- I mean, there is some research now on things like how pyruvate dehydrogenase is being down regulated when you have too much of a low carb diet and then that's not working properly basically then. But I think generally, if you're low carb high fat diet, then couple of days literally leading up to the race you start moderately -- When you are very highly fat adapted you never have to full like high carb, 70% diet carb. Once you're highly fat adapted and you're in a race, I mean, you can still go in, let's say, with moderate amount of carbs for whatever that high intensity that you're doing.
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For example, like you go in with a 200-gram carb load into a race, which is still, let's call it 40% of your daily intake, which is still relatively low carb and still do a flat out cyclocross race.
Christopher: Right. And talk to me about ketone supplements. So, this is obviously a very exciting area of research and development. I posted a chart on my blog that I'll link to in the show notes for this episode. Somebody sent me a ketone monoester and I took it before a cyclocross race and then monitored my blood ketones and also continuous glucose during the race. And the supplement is quite extraordinary. It raised my blood beta-hydroxybutyrate from 0.4 to 6.2 millimole in 30 minutes. And so, of course, I'm wondering are the pro cyclists using this stuff? Can you confirm or deny whether the pro cyclists are using ketone supplements?
Barry: I can't confirm. I can postulate that certain teams have gotten hold of what would be the early day keto esters. And all I will say is even though, let's say, the medical team know what they are, the riders are not even being told. Stuffs are just being put into their bottles and they're drinking them.
Christopher: Really?
Barry: Yes. So, there's no real proper approach being taken so far. It's just that I know that some of the -- I actually think Team Sky did a deal with the Oxford researchers, and this is like a couple of years ago now.
Christopher: It surely must be Kieran Clarke's group I interviewed for the Keto Summit.
Barry: Yeah. I'm surprised he didn't mention that because it actually was in the press. It was actually reported in the English press that this was happening. Then when Chris Froome won the Tour de France last year I think, there was talk that he was using keto ester drinks during it but he didn't know himself. But here's the thing. It's kind of a case of what are the keto supplements actually doing from a performance point of view? And to be honest, I don't think we really know that yet.
Christopher: Yeah, of course. I'm also really interested in the fact that they only showed efficacy in the ketone ester plus glucose group. When you look at the study -- and I'll link to the study in the show notes for this episode -- it seemed that only the cyclists that took glucose with the ketone ester did better. I'm just wondering, did you have any thoughts on that? Have you seen the paper?
Barry: No, I haven't seen the paper. No. This could be two things. One is the glucose having the effect on the performance? And then, two, is glucose stimulating something else, maybe insulin wise, in terms of delivery of ketones? Yeah, I'm not sure.
Christopher: Yeah. It's a very different world. I should make it clear that the study was done in cyclists on a stationary bicycle. Stationary bicycles are not Tour de France. They're not even cyclocross. It's a very different world.
Barry: No. exactly. Yeah, I mean, I think the keto supplement thing is just blown out of proportion at the moment. It's everything I have looked at over the last several years has been down to the benefits of increasing the body's ability to oxidize fats. And that's where the gains are. A side show from that is the production then of beta-hydroxybutyrate or indigenous ketones which, as you know, are predominantly used for when the body is actually in a fasting stressed state and ketones are predominantly used for the brain. I mean, I'd still like to see more studies on how much muscle mitochondrial use the ketones actually have.
Christopher: So you think that's what we should be chasing, is the beta-oxidation, the fat burning rather than the ketogenesis?
Barry: Completely. And that's what takes a long time and that's what takes a lot of up regulating as in standard, say, understanding is that zone one, zone two, you go out and burn fat. But what I'm saying is try and go up zone three, zone four, zone five with a fat oxidizing state. That's where the gains are. That's what your physiology wants, so to speak.
Christopher: Right. So, talk to me about your relationship about with Jack Kruse. Jack Kruse is someone who I find utterly fascinating but almost impossible to interpret. I think I can boil down some of this information into stuff that I can just do like cold thermogenesis. I get that. DHA, I get that. Sunlight, I get that. The Paleo diet, I get that. But the details that lead to the prescription I find very, very difficult indeed. Tell me about your relationship with Jack, first of all.
[0:35:10]
Barry: Well, I've never met Jack. I've never met him yet. I've only been in communication via email and actually had a Skype call with him there a while ago. And then the two of us are just usually back and forth with ideas and comments based on -- I've been writing a blog on his website for the last four years about fasted state training.
A lot of our ideas are converging even though we're coming from different sides of the bridge, basically. But, I mean, I'm actually coming from like a fit healthy athletics, say, from a fit-healthy-athletic perspective. He's coming from a sick overweight disease, trying to reverse disease, so to speak, which is absolutely fine. But [0:36:01] [Audio Glitch] the athletes body versus the, like I said, the sick and diseased person body is very difference. But the principles of what we're both, of what we both stand for and even the mechanisms and the way of life, so to speak, are very, very similar.
Jack just has a very, obviously, complex way understanding of things. And I usually like to simplify the complexity of stuff. But, I mean, I have a good biochemistry and biology head but my physics brain isn't that good and that's what Jack is kind of blowing people's minds with. He's combining biology with physics and turning it into quantum biology. And that's what's changed in the whole game in terms of the understanding of things.
Christopher: Right. And can you boil it down like that? Could you give me your interpretation? Could you give me your prescription from Jack? What do you hear from him? What should I be doing?
Barry: Well, I actually have a great -- There was a great thing that Jack posted up there, the six things to optimal health and living. This is the beauty of it, is that you can go get into the quantum mechanics of things but the doing in real life is actually quite simple. I mean, his first and foremost thing is sunlight. And you know this. If you want everything working properly, not just physiology, if you want everything working from a neurotransmission point of view, from a [0:37:43] [Audio Glitch] point of view, it's getting daily sunlight is key and particularly morning sunlight for circadian rhythm.
Sunlight is number one. Cold and then magnetism, as he says. Cold, stroke, grounding and earthing, seafood, from a nutrition point of view. That's the only main thing that, obviously, he would be recommending. And then a lot of lifestyle stuff like just surrounding yourself with the right people and having good friends and things like that. But the three legs of the stool as what he would say. Sunlight, magnetism and then the key thing there is unfluoridated water. So, non-fluoride water. They're the three. They're what he describes as the three legs of the stool. It's daily sunlight, it's grounding and cold thermogenesis. And then it's unfluoridated water.
Christopher: And how do you make that work for yourself in Dublin with the shortest day of the year approaching?
Barry: Yeah, that's not easy. I really try and live, let's just say, with nature. I live by the sea. I'm close to the mountains. I'm going into the Irish sea pretty much every day and it's pretty cold. It doesn't get much warmer than 14, 15 degrees. So, yeah, sunlight is pretty much good for six months of the year. Winter time is difficult. And there are things you can do to mitigate the damage. I mean, the best one is getting trips down south towards the equator. I do training camps. I go abroad to the south of Spain and stuff like that during the winter.
There is a recommendation of using tanning booths for a few minutes every day for the particular frequency of UV. And for a long time I would have been slagging people who are going around with a tan in the winter from using these tanning booths but I'm seriously considering about doing this coming winter.
Christopher: And is there a particular type of light that you are after in that situation? Does any kind of UV lamp?
[0:39:59]
Barry: Yeah. So, there's a particular frequency of ultraviolet -- The particular frequency of wavelength of light that you need that actually comes from these tanning booths, frequency of ultraviolet lights. Like I said, this kind of tanning [0:40:15] [Indiscernible] the standard ones even emit that type of frequency.
Christopher: And so where does the rubber hit the road with magnetism then? That's not something I can say to my clients on Monday morning, like, "Oh, you just need to think about magnetism." What are the practical implications for that one?
Barry: Yes. I mean, there's quite a lot of information these days about grounding and about earthing and it's down to something called the Schumann resonance. This is the natural electromagnetic frequency that comes from the ground. And if we're directly in contact with that barefoot then we're actually being grounded, so to speak, and it has an anti-inflammatory effect on us. That's the reason why barefoot walks and barefoot anything is generally good for you.
There is a lot of complex [0:41:10] [Audio Glitch] going on in terms of the describing what actually happens with this Schumann resonance and the electron flow situation. But, yeah, I mean, it just has a natural grounding and anti-inflammatory effect and it improves -- The real mitochondrial stuff is what Jack Kruse looks at a lot. I've started trying to piece these things together. But one of things for producing energy is called the electron transport chain.
And that happens at the end of the Krebs cycle. And you want electrons -- How you produce energy then comes down to electron flow. So, anything that makes the flow of electrons better is going to improve your energy production. And what is one of the things that improve the flow of electrons better? That's having the right electromagnetic frequency going through you. And that's what grounded. That's what's standing on the earth does for you.
Christopher: Right. And do you have to get fancy about this? So, I realized that there's ample room for companies to come in with various gadgets but how does it work for you in Dublin?
Barry: In terms of what, sorry?
Christopher: Grounding. Is it just swimming in the ocean? Walking on the beach?
Barry: Yeah. Unfortunately, today, when we figure something out, we usually go out and try and--
Christopher: Productize it.
Barry: Yeah, exactly. I actually do the opposite. I actually see what is the way of doing things without buying anything and just doing it in real life. So, every morning, I walk at the back garden in my bare feet. It doesn't matter what time of the year it is, it doesn't matter how cold, even if it's snowing, I go outside bare foot. I generally try and stay barefoot even as much as I can during the day. If I work from home I'll be barefoot. If I'm out working I'll go to a nearby park and sit down or walk around and just take my shoes and my socks off.
Cold wise, I'm five minute cycle from local beach, so any time of the day I can be in the sea. But, yeah, I mean, today it sounds strange but it shouldn't be. Just be outdoors and go, stand in your garden and walk around and just tear those socks off. There's no magic to that. [0:43:21] [Indiscernible] able to do these things.
Christopher: And are you giving this advice to your clients? Have you got professional cyclists like walking around on the beach with their shoes off and stuff like that?
Barry: Yeah. Well, actually, this is one thing that I have gotten through to, yeah, a lot of, let's say, high performance athletes with and they are practicing it like some of the guys -- I'm very good friends with a Canadian pro cyclist called Svein Tuft. And he rides with ORICA. Well, they're called ORICA BikeExchange, the Australian pro cycling team. And every morning -- He was racing the two big tours this year, the Giro d'Italia and the Tour de France.
He, every morning, went outside his hotel barefoot and just walked around to the closest park or forest that he could find and spend half an hour every morning prior to breakfast barefoot before he went and cycle some of the biggest and hardest stages in the world, or mountains in the world should I say. So, yeah, a lot of people are doing that. No problem. Once you start doing it, it becomes a routine and you just make it a habit then.
Christopher: Right. And what about the cold thermogenesis as well? We got pro cyclists taking freezing cold showers or ice plunges or anything?
Barry: Yes and a lot of them have gotten into that, again, through -- Certainly, I'm sure you're familiar with Wim Hof?
Christopher: Yes. Yes, of course.
Barry: He's spreading his message a lot now. People are watching his stuff and a lot of athletes are actually following his stuff. Yeah, I mean, I've been recommending it to a lot of the athletes I've been working with as well.
[0:45:04]
And there's various ways in which -- I mean, ideally, it's ocean, okay? But if you're not living by the ocean or whatever then you have to work out other ways, not so pleasant ways of doing it with things like -- You can start off with simple things like face dunks, dunking your face into just freezing cold water and that kind of stuff and then you can progress to cold showers. I mean, there's a recent study out which, I think, Wim Hof was associated with and it was like just 60 to 90 seconds cold showers, and how it boosts immunity. And that's just 60 seconds cold shower after a shower.
And then, yeah, I mean, you can get down, you can go fancy with kind of ice packs and things like that. But again, I would rather just keep it simple, get some cold showers in, do some head dunks. If you've got a big barrel or a tub outside your back garden, just fill it up with cold water and sit in it or submerge yourself in it for a few minutes.
Christopher: Right. So, how does that ocean protocol look for you? Do you just go straight in, no wetsuit or anything like that?
Barry: Yeah. So, I mean, like I said, it gets down to like, I think, it goes below ten degrees during the winter and I do it all year round. All I have is literally a ginch on me. So, yeah, no wetsuit. And I do a few things. One thing I do is in the winter I try and run down to the beach. So, I'll run for like 45 minutes down to the beach and that, obviously, increases your body temperature. It's not so bad getting in then. Other times I'll go down. I'll do a little kind of a strength conditioning and [0:46:47] [Indiscernible] kind of a workout on the beach for like 20 minutes.
I'll do some rock jumping and lifting and stuff like that. And then I'd do a lot of just kind of mental focus stuff. I'll stand at the edge of the sea before I get in and I usually wet my wrist and my face first, so just get the kind of extremities hit with the cold first before -- I don't just run in and jump under the water. Yeah. There's lots of little techniques. And the obvious one is just doing a bit of exercise beforehand but there are other little techniques. Then it's just an adaptation process.
Once you get in you can use some breathing techniques. There's a 30-second kind of a shock period you have to go through where if it's freezing cold you have to just go through 30 seconds of shock and then the body starts coming around to basically stabilizing.
Christopher: Right. I'm so awful. I live right by the ocean and I think I've been in twice since I moved here which is terrible. I'm literally five minutes away.
Barry: Well, I can [0:47:51] [Audio Glitch] it's these sort of simple things that people are making. If you started doing fasted state training instead of doing ocean dips on a regular basis that's going to boost your performance and your fitness more than any keto supplements you could take.
Christopher: Yeah, it's true. That's so true. I know but it's not sexy. It's not a sexy pill [0:48:10] [Indiscernible] exercise.
Barry: That's it. It's not sexy. That's why people don't do these things.
Christopher: Excellent. Well, this has been really helpful, Barry. OptimumNutrition4Sport.co.uk is your website. And I will, of course, link to that. Are there any other resources that you'd want people to know about?
Barry: Yeah, I mean, that's my main one, is OptimumNutrition4Sport.com, I think it's one. There's a ".co.uk." I think I've got the two websites covered there. I mean, my stuff is mainly on that. I mean, for people who want more in depth stuff and that's more, yeah, just say more out there stuff, I probably recommend going to Jack Kruse's forum and looking up my blog on--
Christopher: Yes, I will, of course, link to that.
Barry: Fasted state training adaptations. That might suit your listeners maybe a bit more. But I've got various podcasts and I've written a lot of blogs and articles and you'll find all that kind of stuff on my website.
Christopher: Are you working with clients remotely at the moment? Are you taking on clients?
Barry: Yeah, I'm taking on -- I do online consultations and I'm taking on a few kind of like full time elite coaching. So, yeah, I mean, the standard kind of like online consultations, Skype and reports can be done with anyone from around the world. So, yes, that, again, is serviced on my website that anyone can choose.
Christopher: Awesome. That's quite exciting.
Barry: Cool.
Christopher: Well, thank you very much for your time, Barry. I really, really appreciate you.
Barry: Yeah, you're welcome and it's good to finally catch up and, hopefully, that was better than the Keto Summit.
Christopher: It's great. I think it was all the better. Having done all the interviews already, I had a little bit more knowledge and perhaps answered a few more questions than I would have done had we done it sooner.
Barry: Yeah, cool. No worries.
Christopher: Thank you.
Barry: All right. Cheers, Chris.
Christopher: Cheers then.
Barry: Bye-bye.
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